40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 2, 2018 22:22:50 GMT -5
Ive been reading and overhearing more and more people speak about how overpowered the backpack item is because of its ability to double the players carrying capacity of ammunition. People are designing their megawads around where the first backpack is located and people seem to agree that it should be somewhere around MAP15.
This is completely stupid. Theres nothing overpowered about the backpack. Your guns still shoot exactly the same as you do with or without the backpack. Your shotgun is still the same shotgun whether you have 10 shells or 90 shells. Maps that distribute ammo fairly should be making it so you never run out of ammo because -- newsflash, running out of ammo has never ever been fun.
The backpack is not overpowered. So what if it lets you carry extra ammunition into the next map that the map didn't give you up front. The guns are still the same guns and the player having to take extra care to manage their ammo consumption is needless frustration. If your map is too easy because the player has enough ammo, then you made a shitty map.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 22:31:27 GMT -5
Spot on. Just because of having a backpack doesn't mean a mapper still doesn't have control over how much ammo is distributed. Even if the player is carrying "too much" ammo into the next map, guess what? It's called a powerup. It's a bonus. It's supposed to give you the advantage.
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Post by joe-ilya on Jul 3, 2018 1:55:41 GMT -5
What's so overpowered about doubled ammo capacity? It's a pretty good way to get all the ammo instead of having to backtrack to get the second half of it, that's the main reason I put it in my maps. (Dwango9 Map05 ex)
It's a power up that gives the player comfort and accessibility, if that's overpower, then I don't even...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 4:00:24 GMT -5
Ive been reading and overhearing more and more people speak about how overpowered the backpack item is because of its ability to double the players carrying capacity of ammunition. People are designing their megawads around where the first backpack is located and people seem to agree that it should be somewhere around MAP15. Where did you read this?? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 4:37:19 GMT -5
I guess it doesn't matter much for bullets and shells since you typically find these everywhere anyway, but starting with 50 rockets and 300 cells instead of 100 and 600 can be a huge difference.
It would be cool if each ammo type had its own backpack. So you could carry 400 bullets while still having rockets capped at 50. I wonder if there are any mods that implement such a system.
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agent6
Doomer
professional savescummer
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Post by agent6 on Jul 3, 2018 5:47:52 GMT -5
Backpack overpowered? Damn son.
No, I don't see how it would be overpowered either, the weapons do the same amount of damage, all it does is doubling the amount of ammo you can store, which can alter the flow of the game but I'm really not seeing how most wads made nowadays would work without one anyway, it all depends on how the levels are designed. Plus, there's this magic thing called balancing, so you can put a backpack in a level but not much ammo so that it doesn't make a difference in the actual gameplay.
I'd actually say it makes the balance, just like the SSG does.
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BattleKorbi
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Posts: 243
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Post by BattleKorbi on Jul 3, 2018 6:18:48 GMT -5
Maybe the wholes stigma lies around the fact that, when you obtain a backpack, not only does your carrying limit double, but you get a small sample of every ammo type as well, therefore ruining some people's idea of "balanced gameplay" they worked so hard around achieving.
Like "Oh no the player got some extra bullets now he can miss a few shots my map isn't as hard as I had hyped it up to be ohnooooooo---"
I still find the stigma stupid though, just tried to approach this from a different angle, that's all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 6:26:47 GMT -5
I didn't realise there was one, but I'm signed up to it. As people have noted in a few of my recent maps, I like tight ammo, as I don't tend to waste much. As a result, I think running around with enough ammo to kill several hundred enemies is usually excessive... Particularly as I don't like maps where you have to kill several hundred at once. I think there's a lot to managing ammo, swapping weapons and being accurate that makes for a good experience as a player and having that intended by the mapper adds depth to play. Not relying on autoaim must help.
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 3, 2018 7:19:59 GMT -5
]Where did you read this?? A variety of places. I've read it in some discord channels for community megawad projects and posts on doomworld. Try searching backpack on doomworld forums. You'll find many more mappers/testers saying that the backpack makes the map too easy or that it ruins the mapset or to be careful when you hand it out than people who say the backpack is a great thing. |
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Post by Li'l devil on Jul 3, 2018 7:26:54 GMT -5
"The Anti-backpack movement is retarded"
Oh, there's an entire movement now? Damn activists...
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40oz
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Post by 40oz on Jul 3, 2018 7:35:56 GMT -5
i made it up, but there's enough individuals to suggest they're colluding together, somehow...
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BattleKorbi
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Post by BattleKorbi on Jul 3, 2018 9:03:57 GMT -5
So you are the one behind the movement then?! Figures! Whaddya have against backpacks ffs?!?!?! /s
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 9:52:54 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 12:18:03 GMT -5
I've read it in some discord channels Ugh no one cares about discord
Yeah I found something there. The concerns seem that backpacks mess with the balance on continuous play and can trivialize some encounters(???????????????????). I can understand to a certain extent but some people overthink too much about certain things.
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Post by joe-ilya on Jul 3, 2018 12:22:21 GMT -5
Death exit are a solid way to get rid of backpacks though, so it's not so bad anyways.
I haven't seen many people who disprove of the backpack, just Dew mainly.
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Justince
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Post by Justince on Jul 3, 2018 12:32:45 GMT -5
Sounds lazy to me. Like certain people want control ammo down to the last shell, when players should have the choice to stockpile cells or rockets even at the expense of their own safety. There are many ways to force a player to expend these if a mapper is trying to set up an intense fight and doesn't want BFG or rocket spam to ruin it.
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Post by Olroda on Jul 4, 2018 6:04:14 GMT -5
Hm. While I prefer small-scale action myself, I see no harm in including a backpack. As others have already noted, a backpack only expands your capacity of carrying munitions. If the mapper is afraid that the player lugs too much of that around, the answer is simple: Don't hand it out in excessive quantities, you cunt! Doing so is bad design and lessens the value of ...anything, really. The reward is so much greater if there's an obstacle to overcome.
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Post by Heavy Blanket on Jul 4, 2018 12:13:38 GMT -5
They can give me those backpacks for me if they don't need them, I'll find good use of those things.
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Post by Killer5 on Jul 4, 2018 13:34:18 GMT -5
My idea of fun is probably different than most. I think allowing the player to become completely screwed due to ammo starvation is fun.
Backpacks can definitely mess with map balance in challenge wads. A backpack will increase the amount of time until the player needs to worry about grabbing more ammo. This can greatly affect how a fight will play out because without a backpack it becomes much easier to force a player to have to be aggressive/move around if you place ammo in smart locations. Carrying around 600 cells and a bfg when you are a player that is competent with the weapon can really break maps and can often lead to boring fights in some wads.
In traditional wads I haven't ever really thought about the backpack breaking maps.. If you are playing continuous I don't understand why you are worried about map balance much to begin with. Even maps in wads like Sunlust become broken if you play continuously.
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